However, accusing them of not listening or of ignoring people doesn't get us anywhere :) (although rereading it just now, I think I misread your comment. I thought you said they were actively ignoring feedback)
Indeed, I wasn't accusing them of ignoring anyone per se, rather that the product in its current incarnation ingores the needs of a certain (large) set of developers. I'm not aware of the negative comments you mention from other threads, but they hardly seem
helpful as you say.
Psychlist1972
I think they should have ditched the 1.0 release altogether and concentrated solely on what is currently the alpha.
I agree entirely with your sentiments on the 1.0 and 1.1 release cycle. I'm holding out great hopes for version 2.0 though [;)]
FWIW: If I had to guess, I would say that 1.0 and 1.1 evolved in tandem. IMHO, 1.0 was mostly a marketing release, about getting the name out, responding to the competition, and about making sure that the "real" release is at least a +1 release. 1.1 is the
usable release for me (and we proved that out by putting something in production in 1.1 after spinning our wheels on 1.0). That doesn't change the facts, but I think they should have ditched the 1.0 release altogether and concentrated solely on what is currently
the alpha.
I think the part you said about it being a marketing release is correct. Not only for 1.0 but for 1.1 as well. This is exactly why people are complaining. Why even release an alpha with no controls except TextBlock? My initial concern was that it was only
for multimedia stuff. As long as that isn't the case, and they are adding most if not all of the WPF controls, then, I'm not complaining. It's nice for them to release something, but, when you can't doing anything meaningful with it due to a complete lack
of controls, this is the kind of reaction that should be expected. I still haven't figured out why they would have both 1.0 and 1.1 versions going at the same time neither of which have even officially been released.
Silverlight is WPF / Everywhere, here are a couple of thoughts…
1)Silverlight should be a subset of WPF using
the same syntax and programming style so that WPF apps can easily be ported to Silverlight.
2)Simply port the WPF controls to Silverlight instead of writing new ones from scratch.
3)Silverlight is unusable without UI controls. The idea behind Alpha and Beta is to get feedback from the community which is difficult if the community can’t use it due to the lack
of UI controls. I don’t think you can really dispute this and thousands of users hacking up their own controls is not a good thing.
4)Look at the post count for 1.0 vs 1.1 and it is obvious that most want to use 1.1.
5)Why not say, start using WPF today and port to Silverlight 1.1 tomorrow.
Silverlight is truly going to revolutionize the web when it delivers on its promise. Silverlight has also already had a huge impact on the Flex team and this is a good thing for
everyone doing rich content. MS is always thinking years ahead so at times what they do doesn’t make much sense until later when the big picture comes into focus.
One note on WPF, in a recent video on channel 9 they go into depth about upcoming changes in WPF and the problems they solve. They are making some fundamental changes in the way
databinding works and hopefully these changes make it into the first version of Silverlight.
G'day all, Check out Scott Guthrie's blog where he gives a Silverlight 1.1 Update and gives a little overview of what to expect in the next release including support for an extensible control model, layout management, data-binding, control skinning, and
a rich set of built-in controls.
Yes Scott has heaps about Linq (not specific to Silverlight), I am not sure if are after the future of Silverlight and Linq or just Linq ? Certainly Linq is well documented on his Blog see his (currently) 8 part tutorials. Sorry I am busy so can't paste
all the links but if you go to
http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/08/27/linq-to-sql-part-8-executing-custom-sql-expressions.aspx you will get Part 8 and he has linked all the other Parts in that Blog entry.
He shows how to use Partial Methods for validation, concurrency etc. For me he has covered pretty much all I wanted to know about Linq to SQL. I asked him to do a demo of Linq on the server side talking over the wire to a Silverlight Client. His response
was he will when Silverlight supports Databinding, hopefully next release which will be soon, I hope. So if your after the Silverlight and Linq combo then you will have to wait until then.
You will need orcas beta 2 to do his tuturials.
Lastly for those interested in Linq I like to check out Rob Conery's blog,
http://blog.wekeroad.com/ he is the guy who created Subsonic, and he does not work for MS. So he is a very good impartial judge. He has some blogs about linq and for example compares Linq to Subsonic performance etc. Unless you have already checked these
out then this should keep you busy.
It's true that the current SL implementation (1.1) is quite unuseable by itself, unlike Flex or Open Laszlo. SL opens the possibility to create controls yourself the way you need without much overhead from a third-party product. Of course you would need to
have knowledge, time and rosources to do so. Imagine yourself writing something like MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes) before it existed - I think it's kind of the same.
Another thing is - SL is created as a platform working on a browser intended for
all kinds of applicaitons, including complex biz apps, that's quite challenging in Flash (the latter one was intially created to show video or cool animation). If I use the example of MFC above, SL would be analogous to C++ compiler that finally
got out. You can finally write something in a normal OO language (C#) compatible with major browsers.
I wish Microsoft comes up with their library of controls and I also wish I will not be as fat and messy as their current state of MFC (or someone else does that and then MS buys them).
voodooflux
Member
8 Points
4 Posts
Re: Re: Unusable without basic UI controls
Aug 25, 2007 06:02 PM | LINK
Indeed, I wasn't accusing them of ignoring anyone per se, rather that the product in its current incarnation ingores the needs of a certain (large) set of developers. I'm not aware of the negative comments you mention from other threads, but they hardly seem helpful as you say.
I agree entirely with your sentiments on the 1.0 and 1.1 release cycle. I'm holding out great hopes for version 2.0 though [;)]
cheers
v.f.
jemiller
Member
445 Points
237 Posts
Re: Re: Unusable without basic UI controls
Aug 26, 2007 12:18 AM | LINK
I think the part you said about it being a marketing release is correct. Not only for 1.0 but for 1.1 as well. This is exactly why people are complaining. Why even release an alpha with no controls except TextBlock? My initial concern was that it was only for multimedia stuff. As long as that isn't the case, and they are adding most if not all of the WPF controls, then, I'm not complaining. It's nice for them to release something, but, when you can't doing anything meaningful with it due to a complete lack of controls, this is the kind of reaction that should be expected. I still haven't figured out why they would have both 1.0 and 1.1 versions going at the same time neither of which have even officially been released.
sl101
Member
34 Points
19 Posts
Re: Re: Unusable without basic UI controls
Aug 26, 2007 01:58 PM | LINK
1) Silverlight should be a subset of WPF using the same syntax and programming style so that WPF apps can easily be ported to Silverlight.
2) Simply port the WPF controls to Silverlight instead of writing new ones from scratch.
3) Silverlight is unusable without UI controls. The idea behind Alpha and Beta is to get feedback from the community which is difficult if the community can’t use it due to the lack of UI controls. I don’t think you can really dispute this and thousands of users hacking up their own controls is not a good thing.
4) Look at the post count for 1.0 vs 1.1 and it is obvious that most want to use 1.1.
5) Why not say, start using WPF today and port to Silverlight 1.1 tomorrow.
Silverlight is truly going to revolutionize the web when it delivers on its promise. Silverlight has also already had a huge impact on the Flex team and this is a good thing for everyone doing rich content. MS is always thinking years ahead so at times what they do doesn’t make much sense until later when the big picture comes into focus.
One note on WPF, in a recent video on channel 9 they go into depth about upcoming changes in WPF and the problems they solve. They are making some fundamental changes in the way databinding works and hopefully these changes make it into the first version of Silverlight.
Sariel
Member
32 Points
31 Posts
Re: Re: Unusable without basic UI controls
Sep 05, 2007 11:18 PM | LINK
G'day all, Check out Scott Guthrie's blog where he gives a Silverlight 1.1 Update and gives a little overview of what to expect in the next release including support for an extensible control model, layout management, data-binding, control skinning, and a rich set of built-in controls.
http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/09/04/silverlight-1-0-released-and-silverlight-for-linux-announced.aspx
sl101
Member
34 Points
19 Posts
Re: Re: Unusable without basic UI controls
Sep 05, 2007 11:27 PM | LINK
and Linq... What does that say about the final release...
Sariel
Member
32 Points
31 Posts
Re: Re: Unusable without basic UI controls
Sep 05, 2007 11:54 PM | LINK
Yes Scott has heaps about Linq (not specific to Silverlight), I am not sure if are after the future of Silverlight and Linq or just Linq ? Certainly Linq is well documented on his Blog see his (currently) 8 part tutorials. Sorry I am busy so can't paste all the links but if you go to http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/08/27/linq-to-sql-part-8-executing-custom-sql-expressions.aspx you will get Part 8 and he has linked all the other Parts in that Blog entry.
He shows how to use Partial Methods for validation, concurrency etc. For me he has covered pretty much all I wanted to know about Linq to SQL. I asked him to do a demo of Linq on the server side talking over the wire to a Silverlight Client. His response was he will when Silverlight supports Databinding, hopefully next release which will be soon, I hope. So if your after the Silverlight and Linq combo then you will have to wait until then.
You will need orcas beta 2 to do his tuturials.
Lastly for those interested in Linq I like to check out Rob Conery's blog, http://blog.wekeroad.com/ he is the guy who created Subsonic, and he does not work for MS. So he is a very good impartial judge. He has some blogs about linq and for example compares Linq to Subsonic performance etc. Unless you have already checked these out then this should keep you busy.
The last blog I will recomend is Tim Heuer in this blog he has a link to a video he did on how to create a Silverlight control http://timheuer.com/blog/archive/2007/08/20/silverlight-user-controls-silverlight-1_1.aspx . The control is just a button but hey it is a start.
Michael Past...
Member
2 Points
1 Post
Re: Unusable without basic UI controls
Oct 19, 2007 06:34 PM | LINK
Another thing is - SL is created as a platform working on a browser intended for all kinds of applicaitons, including complex biz apps, that's quite challenging in Flash (the latter one was intially created to show video or cool animation). If I use the example of MFC above, SL would be analogous to C++ compiler that finally got out. You can finally write something in a normal OO language (C#) compatible with major browsers.
I wish Microsoft comes up with their library of controls and I also wish I will not be as fat and messy as their current state of MFC (or someone else does that and then MS buys them).
Framework