First, let me preface this by stating that I am not trolling. I am a pretty big Silverlight cheerleader, but what I'm looking for is a bullet list of concrete points that justify the use of Silverlight instead of the use of Flex. Obviously with Silverlight
you get XAML and you get C#, but, I need more. I've got a lot of skeptics around me, and I've been coming up dry when they're asking me "Why would I want to use Silverlight instead of Flex?"
So, hopefully those of you in the know, or maybe the MS team themselves, can answer this one. Why
do I want to use Silverlight instead of Flex? I have my own personal reasons (C#, XAML, etc) but I need more than that. I'm looking for some concrete value-add.
The .NET Addict
http://dotnetaddict.dotnetdevelopersjournal.com
I've been playing around with Flex recently but found that tying .NET data to it is not as straightforward as I'd hoped; simple tasks can be quite painful. One great reason to use Silverlight is that it ties into the .NET architecture, without having to
come up with any kludges. There are 3rd party tools (WebOrb and Flourine) that might make the task easier, but it shouldn't require any 3rd party tool to begin with.
I'm new to Silverlight, but if developing within Visual Studio is easy, then that's another great reason. Flex doesn't tie into Visual Studio; you have to either write the MXML in Notepad and compile or use Flex Builder. I've also seen some resistance on
the part of the folks at Adobe to do webcasts on .NET + Flex; they do Java but not .NET.
With Silverlight, we can expect countless how-to articles to come out in the coming weeks and months; not so much with .NET and Flex.
Great question. I am having the same issue. First of all I do not understand what exactly is going on in Silverlight world. There seem to be too many buzz words going around for technology and applications. I am a visual studio user for ages. It appears to
me that this is only a small start and MS is expecting its legion of developers to embrace it. The least they could have done is to deliver something better structured. And a more complete technology. How the hell can I not use Flex or a competing technology
when I don't even understand what I need to do work with let alone get things done in a simple way. And the ones available seem to be long way off target in terms of usability. Silverlight may be great but the MS guys running the show better get dumber to
understand their potential clients in this area better.
2. Flex 2 is viewable in 85+% of web browsers, Flex 2 SWF files run in Flash Player 9.
3. You can use any HTTP Server and any backend technology (.NET,JAVA,PHP,Ruby,CF, Python) with Flex via XML, SOAP, Sockets, ZLIB, Etc.
4. Flex 2 has a mature and growing component set. There are lots of developers creating open source components for Flex and the source code for all components is available today in the Flex SDK. See: Flexbox, FlexLib, FlexComponents for details.
5. Flex does not integrate well with .NET on the backend. We are working on a great solution to make .NET integration seamless. Additionally strongly typed SOAP Web Services support coming in Flex 3 (very soon) including full support for .NET SOAP encodings.
6. Real-time data push with Binary Sockets using any TCP/IP Socket server. FTP/NNTP/SVN/POP/XMPP Example: http://webmessenger.yahoo.com
7. Graphical and Programatic skinning with Illustrator/Flash/Photoshop/CSS
8. There are many large companies actively developing RIA's with Flex, from JPMorgan/Chase to Yahoo to Google to many Web 2.0 start-ups.
9. If you develop using Flex or AJAX you can port your app to the desktop using Apollo. Apollo allows you to build desktop applications for WIN/LIN/OSX deployed as a single .AIR file cross-platform. One toolset for Web RIA and Desktop RIA development.
10. Flex has gone fully open source Mozilla Public License. All compilers and framework will be available for extension and embedding within the Flex 3 SDK.
Plus all the minor video advantages that SL1.0 has will evaporate in weeks.
It is an easy choice for me but I am pretty biased.
Regards,
Ted Patrick (ted@adobe.com)
Flex Evangelist, Adobe Systems
ummmm I'm really not trying to start a flame war but..at least one thing struck me as frankly uninformed and overly biased. In what world will the
"minor video advantages" ever be evaporated... Adobe has had enough time to try and best Windows Media for years and frankly it will never happen at this point in the game. Now that microsoft is fixing the one advantage flash has had in
cross browser embeding, any chance of Adobe catching up is about to evaporate. The Windows Media VC-1 standard is being used by more professional and enterprise entities than any other standard in the world. Flash does what it does and Silverlight is playing
catch up to flash, but frankly MS is attacking a completely different problem in the end game... to think Adobe will ever have the enterprise scalability, DRM, Compression size, Bandwidth management, CDN support, HD quality, live broadcasting, developer api's,
hardware device accessibility (including STB's, Mobile devices, XBox360's, and HD-DVD players), is wishing for something that frankly the war is over on. Just ask Jeremy Allaire over at brightcove about why he's supporting VC-1 and Silverlight as soon as
he can?
Its still an Alpha. You can't use "Flex is available now" as a slight against Silverlight. It's not an accurate/fair comparison. When Silverlight 1.1 goes RTM, then you can compare.
Silverlight will apparently run in Firefox, Safari, and IE on OS X, Windows, and Linux (thanks to Miguel @ Mono project... he said by end of year)
Silverlight does not require any backend technology. I can double-click the HTML file on OS X and it works.
Again, your #4 is a comparison based on how long Flex has been available. I need real facts here, not just "Flex is older"
ok, the binary sockets "push" thing is awesome, and quite compelling...and looks really bad for Silverlight. Pushing data to my app was the first thing I wanted to try when I heard about Silverlight.
So seriously, does anybody have any facts on why I should use silverlight instead of Flex. I already have a plethora of reasons why I should use Flex instead of Silverlight... what I'm looking for are hard, concrete reasons why I should
use Silverlight instead of Flex.
The .NET Addict
http://dotnetaddict.dotnetdevelopersjournal.com
Don't all flame wars star with "I'm really not trying to start a flame war...". I do not mean to disrupt the conversation, Flex was brought up on this thread and I am happy to answer any questions about Flex as this is my role at Adobe.
Here is what is supported today in Flash Player 9:
Enterprise Scalability - CHECK (Supported today)
CDN Support - CHECK (Supported today) - All major CDN's support Flash Streaming today.
Live Broadcasting - CHECK (Supported today)
Developer API - CHECK (Supported today)
The other items you listed will be addressed soon. It has been too long since a major update to our video solutions but that time has come and we have some great things in development. Additionally there is a nice eco-system around Flash Video from a production/platform
standpoint. Expect that things will change in this area.
I cannot speak for Brightcove but they use Flex 2 for many customer facing applications. They showcased a new video editor made with Flex at Adobe Engage and are very actively involved in many Flash/Flex based projects. They have stated publicly that they
will continue to support Flash ongoing given the market demand for the format is very large.
Flex does not require any backend technology. It has always been just HTML, JS, SWF files. You can optionally exchange data with any existing backend in the formats of XML, SWF, AMF, ASCII, and Binary (ByteArray support).
You can double click an HTML file on OSX, WIN, Linux and it works in all browsers today including FireFox, Safari, Opera, IE.
Regarding "Flex is older" - We have seen a nice ecosystem form and many open source components are being created for the toolset. My point was rather, that an eco-system has formed and is thriving.
Glad you like flash.net.Socket! I will be posting some Twisted Python servers for Binary Socket support on my blog in a weeks time. Nothing like a free server for chat, im or the ability to write your own binary protocols.
Again not trying to upset the discussion here, I am just trying to addressing the Flex aspect of this discussion. If Flex/Flash hadn't been brought up then I wouldn't be posting at all. :)
Glad you like flash.net.Socket! I will be posting some Twisted Python servers for Binary Socket support on my blog in a weeks time. Nothing like a free server for chat, im or the ability to write your own binary protocols.
[Ears perk up, smile hits face] - I'd love to see that, I've been too lazy myself to work on such a thing so I'm glad to see someone has done it. I believe the fact Silverlight 1.0 and 1.1 not supporting real sockets like Flash/Flex does have me a little
disappointed. It looks like Silverlight 1.1 has a chance of getting support for WCF which would be nice, but I really want socket capability like Flash's binary sockets.
I look forward to seeing your blog post about the Twisted server.
I think the biggest advantage to SL + related tools and services is that you get to work with a robust, scalable, flexible and cost effective platform that works all the way from script kiddie level up to full on enterprise scale apps.
You get to code in Javascript all the way up to multithreaded C# applications, bringing processing power to the UI that we have not seen before on the web.
As opposed to the make-believe enterprise readyness that we've been hearing about for years, make believe scalability and flexibility where video is concerned, the complete lack of cost effectiveness, and the akward single threaded scripting language in
competing technologies. Not to mention the lackluster state of development tools.
It was time for a new kid on the block in the RIA space. Now that it's here we'll see how many people are really that much in love with the competing way of doing things. Of course there is going to be some resistance against SL because it comes from Microsoft,
but in the end people always go with what makes the most sense, is the easiest and cheapest to make, maintain, deploy and support. The choice is fairly simple really, and obvious at that.
DotNetAddict
Member
80 Points
55 Posts
Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 03, 2007 05:21 PM | LINK
First, let me preface this by stating that I am not trolling. I am a pretty big Silverlight cheerleader, but what I'm looking for is a bullet list of concrete points that justify the use of Silverlight instead of the use of Flex. Obviously with Silverlight you get XAML and you get C#, but, I need more. I've got a lot of skeptics around me, and I've been coming up dry when they're asking me "Why would I want to use Silverlight instead of Flex?"
So, hopefully those of you in the know, or maybe the MS team themselves, can answer this one. Why do I want to use Silverlight instead of Flex? I have my own personal reasons (C#, XAML, etc) but I need more than that. I'm looking for some concrete value-add.
http://dotnetaddict.dotnetdevelopersjournal.com
oneworld95
Member
12 Points
2 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 03, 2007 06:25 PM | LINK
I've been playing around with Flex recently but found that tying .NET data to it is not as straightforward as I'd hoped; simple tasks can be quite painful. One great reason to use Silverlight is that it ties into the .NET architecture, without having to come up with any kludges. There are 3rd party tools (WebOrb and Flourine) that might make the task easier, but it shouldn't require any 3rd party tool to begin with.
I'm new to Silverlight, but if developing within Visual Studio is easy, then that's another great reason. Flex doesn't tie into Visual Studio; you have to either write the MXML in Notepad and compile or use Flex Builder. I've also seen some resistance on the part of the folks at Adobe to do webcasts on .NET + Flex; they do Java but not .NET.
With Silverlight, we can expect countless how-to articles to come out in the coming weeks and months; not so much with .NET and Flex.
forthangol
Member
2 Points
1 Post
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 03, 2007 10:57 PM | LINK
adobeted
Member
16 Points
8 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 04, 2007 06:53 AM | LINK
I can talk about the Flex side...
1. Flex is available today and works.
2. Flex 2 is viewable in 85+% of web browsers, Flex 2 SWF files run in Flash Player 9.
3. You can use any HTTP Server and any backend technology (.NET,JAVA,PHP,Ruby,CF, Python) with Flex via XML, SOAP, Sockets, ZLIB, Etc.
4. Flex 2 has a mature and growing component set. There are lots of developers creating open source components for Flex and the source code for all components is available today in the Flex SDK. See: Flexbox, FlexLib, FlexComponents for details.
5. Flex does not integrate well with .NET on the backend. We are working on a great solution to make .NET integration seamless. Additionally strongly typed SOAP Web Services support coming in Flex 3 (very soon) including full support for .NET SOAP encodings.
6. Real-time data push with Binary Sockets using any TCP/IP Socket server. FTP/NNTP/SVN/POP/XMPP Example: http://webmessenger.yahoo.com
7. Graphical and Programatic skinning with Illustrator/Flash/Photoshop/CSS
8. There are many large companies actively developing RIA's with Flex, from JPMorgan/Chase to Yahoo to Google to many Web 2.0 start-ups.
9. If you develop using Flex or AJAX you can port your app to the desktop using Apollo. Apollo allows you to build desktop applications for WIN/LIN/OSX deployed as a single .AIR file cross-platform. One toolset for Web RIA and Desktop RIA development.
10. Flex has gone fully open source Mozilla Public License. All compilers and framework will be available for extension and embedding within the Flex 3 SDK.
Plus all the minor video advantages that SL1.0 has will evaporate in weeks.
It is an easy choice for me but I am pretty biased.
Regards,
Ted Patrick (ted@adobe.com)
Flex Evangelist, Adobe Systems
winston1000
Member
78 Points
31 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 04, 2007 11:29 AM | LINK
ummmm I'm really not trying to start a flame war but..at least one thing struck me as frankly uninformed and overly biased. In what world will the "minor video advantages" ever be evaporated... Adobe has had enough time to try and best Windows Media for years and frankly it will never happen at this point in the game. Now that microsoft is fixing the one advantage flash has had in cross browser embeding, any chance of Adobe catching up is about to evaporate. The Windows Media VC-1 standard is being used by more professional and enterprise entities than any other standard in the world. Flash does what it does and Silverlight is playing catch up to flash, but frankly MS is attacking a completely different problem in the end game... to think Adobe will ever have the enterprise scalability, DRM, Compression size, Bandwidth management, CDN support, HD quality, live broadcasting, developer api's, hardware device accessibility (including STB's, Mobile devices, XBox360's, and HD-DVD players), is wishing for something that frankly the war is over on. Just ask Jeremy Allaire over at brightcove about why he's supporting VC-1 and Silverlight as soon as he can?
Ohh in case you forgot... In 1995 Jeremy D. Allaire co-founded Allaire Corporation with his brother JJ Allaire, creating the web development tool Cold Fusion. When Macromedia acquired Allaire in March 2001, Jeremy became Chief Technology Officer. At Macromedia, Jeremy helped create the Macromedia MX (Flash) platform.
....END OF LINE.
DotNetAddict
Member
80 Points
55 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 04, 2007 11:43 AM | LINK
Silverlight:
So seriously, does anybody have any facts on why I should use silverlight instead of Flex. I already have a plethora of reasons why I should use Flex instead of Silverlight... what I'm looking for are hard, concrete reasons why I should use Silverlight instead of Flex.
http://dotnetaddict.dotnetdevelopersjournal.com
adobeted
Member
16 Points
8 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 04, 2007 02:24 PM | LINK
Don't all flame wars star with "I'm really not trying to start a flame war...". I do not mean to disrupt the conversation, Flex was brought up on this thread and I am happy to answer any questions about Flex as this is my role at Adobe.
Here is what is supported today in Flash Player 9:
Enterprise Scalability - CHECK (Supported today)
CDN Support - CHECK (Supported today) - All major CDN's support Flash Streaming today.
Live Broadcasting - CHECK (Supported today)
Developer API - CHECK (Supported today)
The other items you listed will be addressed soon. It has been too long since a major update to our video solutions but that time has come and we have some great things in development. Additionally there is a nice eco-system around Flash Video from a production/platform standpoint. Expect that things will change in this area.
I cannot speak for Brightcove but they use Flex 2 for many customer facing applications. They showcased a new video editor made with Flex at Adobe Engage and are very actively involved in many Flash/Flex based projects. They have stated publicly that they will continue to support Flash ongoing given the market demand for the format is very large.
Regards,
Ted Patrick (ted@adobe.com)
Flex Evangelist - Adobe Systems
adobeted
Member
16 Points
8 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 04, 2007 02:36 PM | LINK
Flex does not require any backend technology. It has always been just HTML, JS, SWF files. You can optionally exchange data with any existing backend in the formats of XML, SWF, AMF, ASCII, and Binary (ByteArray support).
You can double click an HTML file on OSX, WIN, Linux and it works in all browsers today including FireFox, Safari, Opera, IE.
Regarding "Flex is older" - We have seen a nice ecosystem form and many open source components are being created for the toolset. My point was rather, that an eco-system has formed and is thriving.
Glad you like flash.net.Socket! I will be posting some Twisted Python servers for Binary Socket support on my blog in a weeks time. Nothing like a free server for chat, im or the ability to write your own binary protocols.
Again not trying to upset the discussion here, I am just trying to addressing the Flex aspect of this discussion. If Flex/Flash hadn't been brought up then I wouldn't be posting at all. :)
Regards,
Ted Patrick (ted@adobe.com)
Flex Evangelist - Adobe Systems
clung
Member
45 Points
24 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 04, 2007 03:29 PM | LINK
[Ears perk up, smile hits face] - I'd love to see that, I've been too lazy myself to work on such a thing so I'm glad to see someone has done it. I believe the fact Silverlight 1.0 and 1.1 not supporting real sockets like Flash/Flex does have me a little disappointed. It looks like Silverlight 1.1 has a chance of getting support for WCF which would be nice, but I really want socket capability like Flash's binary sockets.
I look forward to seeing your blog post about the Twisted server.
http://giantflyingsaucer.com/blog/
m3taverse
Member
186 Points
88 Posts
Re: Justification request: Silverlight vs. Flex
May 04, 2007 03:35 PM | LINK
I think the biggest advantage to SL + related tools and services is that you get to work with a robust, scalable, flexible and cost effective platform that works all the way from script kiddie level up to full on enterprise scale apps.
You get to code in Javascript all the way up to multithreaded C# applications, bringing processing power to the UI that we have not seen before on the web.
As opposed to the make-believe enterprise readyness that we've been hearing about for years, make believe scalability and flexibility where video is concerned, the complete lack of cost effectiveness, and the akward single threaded scripting language in competing technologies. Not to mention the lackluster state of development tools.
It was time for a new kid on the block in the RIA space. Now that it's here we'll see how many people are really that much in love with the competing way of doing things. Of course there is going to be some resistance against SL because it comes from Microsoft, but in the end people always go with what makes the most sense, is the easiest and cheapest to make, maintain, deploy and support. The choice is fairly simple really, and obvious at that.