/* Please consider sounding off if this summarizes your concerns as well. See bottom for more notes … */
An Open Plea by Silverlight and WPF Developers to Fully Support These Wonderful MS .NET Platforms in Windows 8 in Addition to the New HTML5 Platform
WPF and Silverlight developers have valid reasons to be concerned that the Microsoft .NET UI platforms they have grown to love and support – because they’re the best in the world – are being demoted in Windows 8 in a way that could relegate them to a place
of obscurity. This place of obscurity could even be a way of letting them ‘die on the vine,’ if indeed they were no longer put forth as platforms of the future, and supported as such.
We would like to know: Do Silverlight and WPF have an integral, irreplaceable, and front-facing role to play in Windows 8 and in the future?
The announcement of a “new platform, based on … HTML5 and JavaScript,” could prove to be an exciting opportunity, both for Microsoft and for developers. While opinions amongst .NET developers may vary on this, many of us appreciate the possibilities this
could open up. But in less than 24 hours of these announcements, the resounding chorus of WPF/SL developers is that they are greatly concerned that this “new platform” is being put out
in a manner and tone that demotes the role and importance of SL/WPF. One might reasonably wonder if this is an over-reaction. But the following points paint a sobering picture that seems to justify these concerns:
In all of the officially released statements concerning the upcoming Windows 8, there has not been one,
not one, prepared statement that even mentions the future role of .NET, WPF, or Silverlight in Windows 8, contrary to all of the statements concerning the integral role the new HTML5 platform will play. Only after Windows President S. Sinofsky
was asked what role Silverlight played in Windows 8, was it stated that it would continue to run in IE and on the desktop. Clearly then, our concern is not that these terrific platforms will be terminated, but that they might be left to ‘dry on the vine.’
In an officially released video dubbed “Building Windows 8” by Jensen Harris, Director of PM of Windows User Experience, Jensen clearly portrays a dichotomy of apps that will exist on Windows 8: 1) Apps that are repeatedly called “Windows 8 Apps,”
which he speaks of as “Web-connected and web-powered apps built using HTML5 and JavaScript,” and 2) “Existing windows apps.” WPF / Silverlight apps seem to be precluded from the “Windows 8 Apps.” We do not want Silvelight and WPF apps to be relegated
to a “classic” (if even a “legacy”) category, while we hope to see a paradigm of “Windows 8 HTML5 Apps” exist alongside of “Windows 8 WPF/Silverlight Apps,” both of which will constitute the front-facing, cool new look of Windows 8.
The MIX 2011 conference focused almost exclusively on HTML5 technologies, with little focus on Silverlight.
A new developer conference called BUILD has been announced in place of what would have been PDC for September (www.buildwindows.com). Again we see no mention
whatsoever of WPF, SL, or .NET: “Go behind the scenes and learn all about the new app model that allows you to create powerful new apps. All while retaining the ability to use your existing apps. Web-connected and web-powered apps built using HTML5
and JavaScript [that] have access to the power of the PC.” While the commitment is made there that .NET apps (“your existing apps”) will not of course be terminated, one is lead to believe that WPF/SL apps do not have a key role to play in the new Windows
8, front-facing model.
Perhaps of lesser significance, but the following raises questions: “When Scott Guthrie, former corporate vice president of the .NET Platform at Microsoft, left the Developer Division [even on the very day of the announcement of this “new” Windows 8 app
“platform”] to head up a new Windows Azure business unit, I was more than concerned… ” (M. Desmond,
The Sinofsky Shuffle,
http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2011/06/01/pcfra_guthrie.aspx).
/* ======= */
Three concrete steps or verbal commitments would assure us Silverlight and WPF developers that there is
an integral, irreplaceable, and front-facing role to play in Windows 8 and into the future. That:
1) WPF and Silverlight apps have equal integration with Windows 8 tiles, on equal parity with the capabilities being given to the HTML5 based apps.
2) Silverlight, and perhaps also WPF apps, be fully integrated in what is thought to be a forthcoming
Windows 8 app store, in a manner that is on par with the HTML5 apps.
3) Concrete steps be made in future Windows developer conferences, starting with BUILD,
to demonstrate that WPF and Silverlight have a significant role to play in the future of Windows 8, and that their
active development will continue unabated.
As the future marches on, we all understand the necessity to further integrate with the web, and to aggressively broaden the reach of the technologies we invest in. The new Windows 8 HTML5 based app platform will likely constitute a smart and exciting way
to reach these goals. But it is unthinkable that the needs of businesses and users alike could be fully met without a strong and vibrant WPF, as it offers the solution of choice for developing the most powerful and deeply integrated line of business applications
for Windows. Likewise, while the new HTML5 app platform will admittedly open up a vibrant new choice for many broad-reaching solutions, it is unthinkable that the extensive capabilites that Silverlight offers, as it builds on the extraordinary elegance and
power of XAML, C# and the .NET framework, could be superceded.
We believe the successful way forward lies within a dynamic commitement to all three technologies – a vibrantly supported WPF and Silverlight conjoined to this exciting new HTML5 technology. “A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.” Each of
these three technologies offers things the others do not. One size rarely fits all. But when conjoined together, they offer the broadest base of solutions to the diversity of problems we face.
We look forward to a bright and committed future for allof these technologies,
Signatures of Silverlight / WPF / .NET developers,
/* ============
Please consider 'signing your name' to this open letter and share any suggestions or changes you would like. This seems to encapsulate a lot of what I've heard from the rest of you (to include myself!) in the last few days. I considered putting this on UserVoice
so we could get official 'votes' and 'signatures,' though it greatly limits what can be said in terms of a full letter. You're suggestions are welcomed on where this might be put (some way to get real signatures or votes), but I hope a calm-headed letter like
this could be a positive step forward. I am hopeful that our concerns our being heard, and that the future of all this could turn out pretty cool in the end. ~ Nick P
Thank you for taking the time to compose such an insightful and diplomatic summary of our concerns as Silverlight/WPF developers. Having worked years with rarely a day off to bring to market a significant productivity application suite based upon Silverlight,
and having trusted Microsoft's consistently positive outlook regarding Silverlight, needless to say, I CONCUR!
I agree. I had been loyal ms developer for 10 years. My company is gold ms partner and have big investments in .net and silverlight. Most of our silverlight projects make sense on tablet and we are continuing investments with the hope that all code will
work on win8 tablets. Should we target iPad instead?
Thanks for taking time writing the well-composed letter. This really speaks my mind. We want Silverlight and WPF apps to be as important as HTML5/JQuery apps in Windows 8. Please count me in!
Very well worded. Hopefully this letter is not needed and the picture you paint of a development story based on "three cords" is already their intention. Perhaps they will be revealing this at BUILD.
I really can't imagine that, in an intensive business environment, we can use full screen apps with a touch UI efficiently. My clients often open 5 to 6 Windows for applications and webbrowsers in 3 screens. The Windows 7's task bar is too good to lose.
I fully share your concern about the absurd, IMO, direction taken by MS's communication.
I see a complete contradiction in the idea of considering HTML5/JS as the new plateform for building W8 applications:
by definition those techs are supposed to offer the same software resources and runtime engine on any supported plateform:
how can you use them to build W8 specific apps without providing the API extensions for that purpose, therefore ruining
the 'write once run anywhere' dogma?
Awesome responses so far, THANX, and I hope you all will KEEP 'EM COMING.
Pete said that some at the highest levels of MS have been viewing these forums. I hope they view this open letter and your responses. So hopefully this open letter will represent one that gets our concerns across in a respectful way, and in a way that's
reflective of the realities they undoubtedly are trying to confront. (Different purposes for different threads of course, like sometimes blowing off high-pressure steam!). Let's admit it, things have rapidly changed in the last couple years, unbelievably almost
-- so if the future of Windows was to slope down rather than slope up and stay strong, obviously, that would really jeapordize our .NET capabilities. There is a lot we are competing with, like entirely Web-App running OSes (G. Chrome of course).
I'm still soaking in what we've seen with Windows 8. It's dawning on me: Windows 8 is being positioning *to be* the Net. It's quite something. The Net comes to you by default, it's hardbacked right on your (now an antiquated term) rolling or roiling 'desktop'.
The tiles (what a brilliant concept [and as usual for brilliance: simple]) are critical for facilitating this, you're not "opening programs" to connect to the Net, no, they update right there immediately. I don't have a WP7 yet, but I love it, personally.
Anyways, the point here is : LET'S KEEP .NET IN THIS NEW WINDOWS 8 NET!
So keep sounding off, short or long. The more responses here the better.
<<like entirely Web-App running OSes (G. Chrome of course).
Except that ChromeOS seems to integrate a technology called (P)NaCl,
which is a runtime environnement making possible to execute programs written in virtually any language in a safe way inside the ChromeOS browser, and that the Mono team has announced that a version of .Net would be hosted by (P)NaCl.
(P)NaCl illustrates the fact that the goals pursued by HTML5/JS could be reached without implying to giveup .Net and downgrade to JS, or in otherwords that the coupling between the HTML5 and JS machineries is obsolete and absurd.
Similarly to what Google is doing with PNaCl, .Net could be, or have been, the heart of MS's strategy for HTML5,
in that it could have been the base for its JS implementation, without giving up the idea of embedding the other .Net languages as well...
A .Net heart in IE would have given a sense to the idea of 'native' HTML5 support :-)!
eclipsoft
Member
44 Points
38 Posts
Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 01:59 AM | LINK
/* Please consider sounding off if this summarizes your concerns as well. See bottom for more notes … */
An Open Plea by Silverlight and WPF Developers to Fully Support These Wonderful MS .NET Platforms in Windows 8 in Addition to the New HTML5 Platform
WPF and Silverlight developers have valid reasons to be concerned that the Microsoft .NET UI platforms they have grown to love and support – because they’re the best in the world – are being demoted in Windows 8 in a way that could relegate them to a place of obscurity. This place of obscurity could even be a way of letting them ‘die on the vine,’ if indeed they were no longer put forth as platforms of the future, and supported as such. We would like to know: Do Silverlight and WPF have an integral, irreplaceable, and front-facing role to play in Windows 8 and in the future?
The announcement of a “new platform, based on … HTML5 and JavaScript,” could prove to be an exciting opportunity, both for Microsoft and for developers. While opinions amongst .NET developers may vary on this, many of us appreciate the possibilities this could open up. But in less than 24 hours of these announcements, the resounding chorus of WPF/SL developers is that they are greatly concerned that this “new platform” is being put out in a manner and tone that demotes the role and importance of SL/WPF. One might reasonably wonder if this is an over-reaction. But the following points paint a sobering picture that seems to justify these concerns:
/* ======= */
Three concrete steps or verbal commitments would assure us Silverlight and WPF developers that there is an integral, irreplaceable, and front-facing role to play in Windows 8 and into the future. That:
1) WPF and Silverlight apps have equal integration with Windows 8 tiles, on equal parity with the capabilities being given to the HTML5 based apps.
2) Silverlight, and perhaps also WPF apps, be fully integrated in what is thought to be a forthcoming Windows 8 app store, in a manner that is on par with the HTML5 apps.
3) Concrete steps be made in future Windows developer conferences, starting with BUILD, to demonstrate that WPF and Silverlight have a significant role to play in the future of Windows 8, and that their active development will continue unabated.
As the future marches on, we all understand the necessity to further integrate with the web, and to aggressively broaden the reach of the technologies we invest in. The new Windows 8 HTML5 based app platform will likely constitute a smart and exciting way to reach these goals. But it is unthinkable that the needs of businesses and users alike could be fully met without a strong and vibrant WPF, as it offers the solution of choice for developing the most powerful and deeply integrated line of business applications for Windows. Likewise, while the new HTML5 app platform will admittedly open up a vibrant new choice for many broad-reaching solutions, it is unthinkable that the extensive capabilites that Silverlight offers, as it builds on the extraordinary elegance and power of XAML, C# and the .NET framework, could be superceded.
We believe the successful way forward lies within a dynamic commitement to all three technologies – a vibrantly supported WPF and Silverlight conjoined to this exciting new HTML5 technology. “A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.” Each of these three technologies offers things the others do not. One size rarely fits all. But when conjoined together, they offer the broadest base of solutions to the diversity of problems we face.
We look forward to a bright and committed future for all of these technologies,
Signatures of Silverlight / WPF / .NET developers,
/* ============
Please consider 'signing your name' to this open letter and share any suggestions or changes you would like. This seems to encapsulate a lot of what I've heard from the rest of you (to include myself!) in the last few days. I considered putting this on UserVoice so we could get official 'votes' and 'signatures,' though it greatly limits what can be said in terms of a full letter. You're suggestions are welcomed on where this might be put (some way to get real signatures or votes), but I hope a calm-headed letter like this could be a positive step forward. I am hopeful that our concerns our being heard, and that the future of all this could turn out pretty cool in the end. ~ Nick P
============*/
silverlight javascript WPF HTML5 Future Windows 8 .NET Framework
dotnetextensions.com
Drzog
Member
115 Points
67 Posts
Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 02:39 AM | LINK
Nicholas,
Thank you for taking the time to compose such an insightful and diplomatic summary of our concerns as Silverlight/WPF developers. Having worked years with rarely a day off to bring to market a significant productivity application suite based upon Silverlight, and having trusted Microsoft's consistently positive outlook regarding Silverlight, needless to say, I CONCUR!
Best Regards,
Phil Jacobsen
Eugene Akinshin
Member
177 Points
62 Posts
Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 03:16 AM | LINK
I agree. I had been loyal ms developer for 10 years. My company is gold ms partner and have big investments in .net and silverlight. Most of our silverlight projects make sense on tablet and we are continuing investments with the hope that all code will work on win8 tablets. Should we target iPad instead?
Best regards,
Eugene Akinshin, Ph. D.
Co-Founder of Perpetuum Software LLC, Grapholite
kimsk112
Member
73 Points
37 Posts
Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 03:17 AM | LINK
Thanks for taking time writing the well-composed letter. This really speaks my mind. We want Silverlight and WPF apps to be as important as HTML5/JQuery apps in Windows 8. Please count me in!
John332
Member
2 Points
1 Post
Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 03:49 AM | LINK
Very well worded. Hopefully this letter is not needed and the picture you paint of a development story based on "three cords" is already their intention. Perhaps they will be revealing this at BUILD.
Count me in.
lixin123
Member
116 Points
57 Posts
Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 07:21 AM | LINK
Fully agreed
lixin123
Member
116 Points
57 Posts
Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 07:43 AM | LINK
I really can't imagine that, in an intensive business environment, we can use full screen apps with a touch UI efficiently. My clients often open 5 to 6 Windows for applications and webbrowsers in 3 screens. The Windows 7's task bar is too good to lose.
pmonteil
Member
104 Points
71 Posts
Re: Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 09:35 AM | LINK
I fully share your concern about the absurd, IMO, direction taken by MS's communication.
I see a complete contradiction in the idea of considering HTML5/JS as the new plateform for building W8 applications:
by definition those techs are supposed to offer the same software resources and runtime engine on any supported plateform:
how can you use them to build W8 specific apps without providing the API extensions for that purpose, therefore ruining
the 'write once run anywhere' dogma?
eclipsoft
Member
44 Points
38 Posts
Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 10:52 AM | LINK
Awesome responses so far, THANX, and I hope you all will KEEP 'EM COMING.
Pete said that some at the highest levels of MS have been viewing these forums. I hope they view this open letter and your responses. So hopefully this open letter will represent one that gets our concerns across in a respectful way, and in a way that's reflective of the realities they undoubtedly are trying to confront. (Different purposes for different threads of course, like sometimes blowing off high-pressure steam!). Let's admit it, things have rapidly changed in the last couple years, unbelievably almost -- so if the future of Windows was to slope down rather than slope up and stay strong, obviously, that would really jeapordize our .NET capabilities. There is a lot we are competing with, like entirely Web-App running OSes (G. Chrome of course).
I'm still soaking in what we've seen with Windows 8. It's dawning on me: Windows 8 is being positioning *to be* the Net. It's quite something. The Net comes to you by default, it's hardbacked right on your (now an antiquated term) rolling or roiling 'desktop'. The tiles (what a brilliant concept [and as usual for brilliance: simple]) are critical for facilitating this, you're not "opening programs" to connect to the Net, no, they update right there immediately. I don't have a WP7 yet, but I love it, personally.
Anyways, the point here is : LET'S KEEP .NET IN THIS NEW WINDOWS 8 NET! So keep sounding off, short or long. The more responses here the better.
dotnetextensions.com
pmonteil
Member
104 Points
71 Posts
Re: Re: Open Plea by Silverlight / WPF Devs for Full Windows 8 Support in Addition to HTML5
Jun 04, 2011 12:02 PM | LINK
<<like entirely Web-App running OSes (G. Chrome of course).
Except that ChromeOS seems to integrate a technology called (P)NaCl,
which is a runtime environnement making possible to execute programs written in virtually any language in a safe way inside the ChromeOS browser, and that the Mono team has announced that a version of .Net would be hosted by (P)NaCl.
(P)NaCl illustrates the fact that the goals pursued by HTML5/JS could be reached without implying to giveup .Net and downgrade to JS, or in otherwords that the coupling between the HTML5 and JS machineries is obsolete and absurd.
Similarly to what Google is doing with PNaCl, .Net could be, or have been, the heart of MS's strategy for HTML5,
in that it could have been the base for its JS implementation, without giving up the idea of embedding the other .Net languages as well...
A .Net heart in IE would have given a sense to the idea of 'native' HTML5 support :-)!