Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2 RSS

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  neoearth

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  Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 07:46 PM | LINK

  In response to http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/t/230502.aspx.

  This was shut down to trolling activity? Fair enough... but guess what... this is 2011 and us developers are louder than ever. (this is a good thing).
  

  The OP in the above post was dead on.

  Is silvelright/wpf (the natural progression for windows development) being marginalized by an oh so trendy markup and browser scripting language? Is windows development going DHTML? Or will Silverlight/Wpf be first class citizens?
  

  So, the people have spoken, msft, what's the answer?

  (signed, proud .net developer)
  

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  Psychlist1972

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 07:54 PM | LINK

  As stated in the previous thread

  • None of us at Microsoft can say anything until //build/ in September. No one likes that, including me. That's all we can do, however.
  • Speculation from people outside of Microsoft is just that, speculation. I know it's going to happen, but keep in mind that it's probably not correct.
  • This thread needs to stay civil, and keep the flamebait and trolling out. I'm especially watching people who just joined the Silverlight.net community in the past day.
  • Be respectful, and don't give bile a permalink.

  Pete

   

   

  Developer Community Program Manager - XAML, WPF, Silverlight, .NETMF/Gadgeteer
  10rem.net - Pete Brown's site and blog | twitter: @pete_brown
  I work for the Developer Guidance group in Microsoft. Opinions are my own.
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  jussik

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 07:56 PM | LINK

  ray-reymond

  I mean, come on, how to call KINECT APIs inside a H5/JS programs? Are they gonna add private "EEE-stylle" tags to H5 for that purpose? No gonna work.

  It's already done. Bing it.

  mr2

  We will see later this year/next year if MS has managed to write Excel or Powerpoint in HTML5+JavaScript.

  Done: http://office.microsoft.com/web-apps/

  mr2

  Try to write a C# compiler (or a javascript interpreter when you feel C# is really no longer needed) in HTML5+javascript.

  Done and done, see earlier in thread and

  http://jsc.sourceforge.net/

  http://michaelsync.net/2007/10/29/script-c-to-javascript-converter

  Here's a tool that converts C/C++/Objective C source code to JS

  http://emscripten.org

  Here's a tool that converts any OpenGL / OpenAL based game to HTML5

  http://www.mandreel.com/

  You can even build virtual machines that run native code on JS, here's a linux running in the browser:

  http://bellard.org/jslinux/

  As for the SQL server, etc, there's NodeJS that is just the ideal platform for servers, you can forget about the browser inconsistencies there, and don't worry, they're porting it to Windows.

  So there's no reason for the trash talk on JS.

  I suggest we declare truce with the language wars here, and focus on our work, like Pete said.

  I think you'll find that HTML5 being a first class citizen in W8, HTML5 + Silverlight is a good place to be, and as for the strong leader thing, I think MSFT is showing exactly that with this. I understand you're worried about your livelihood, but no one is asking you to give up anything, you can still live with the comforts of C# and SL. In one case you'll just be compiling to JavaScript, but hey, that's the life we chose as programmers, but in the other you can keep doing it as you were. But one thing is for sure, no one can destroy SL, you can keep using it 'til the world ends even if MSFT throws in the towel, which is highly unlikely.

  ray-reymond

  I mean, come on, how to call KINECT APIs inside a H5/JS programs? Are they gonna add private "EEE-stylle" tags to H5 for that purpose? No gonna work.

  
  

  It's already done. Bing it.

  
  

  mr2

  We will see later this year/next year if MS has managed to write Excel or Powerpoint in HTML5+JavaScript.

  
  

  Done: http://office.microsoft.com/web-apps/

  
  

  mr2

  Try to write a C# compiler (or a javascript interpreter when you feel C# is really no longer needed) in HTML5+javascript.

  
  

  Done and done, see earlier in thread and

  http://jsc.sourceforge.net/

  http://michaelsync.net/2007/10/29/script-c-to-javascript-converter

  
  

  Here's a tool that converts C/C++/Objective C source code to JS

  http://emscripten.org

  
  

  Here's a tool that converts any OpenGL / OpenAL based game to HTML5

  http://www.mandreel.com/

  
  

  You can even build virtual machines that run native code on JS, here's a linux running in the browser:

  http://bellard.org/jslinux/

  
  

  As for the SQL server, etc, there's NodeJS that is just the ideal platform for servers, you can forget about the browser inconsistencies there, and don't worry, they're porting it to Windows.

  
  

  So there's no reason for the trash talk on JS.

  
  

  I suggest we declare truce with the language wars here, and focus on our work, like Pete said.

  
  

  I think you'll find that HTML5 being a first class citizen in W8, HTML5 + Silverlight is a good place to be, and as for the strong leader thing, I think MSFT is showing exactly that with this. I understand you're worried about your livelihood, but no one is asking you to give up anything, you can still live with the comforts of C# and SL. In one case you'll just be compiling to JavaScript, but hey, that's the life we chose as programmers, but in the other you can keep doing it as you were. But one thing is for sure, no one can destroy SL, you can keep using it 'til the world ends even if MSFT throws in the towel, which is highly unlikely. Especially if this group holds the act together, and keeps developing great applications on it.

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  neoearth

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  Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 08:05 PM | LINK

  Fair enough. If anything... you have to admit... this response was amazing.

  If at any time MSFT was to gauge the interest in silverlight/wpf interest, 5.5MIL+ views should be eye opening.

  Silverlight, for me, and those whom I train, the 'a-ha' moment. We have spent years with bubble gum and tape (html/js) and the thought of going back to this world would be heart breaking for more people than you realize.

  Can't tell you how many times us devs wished that MSFT would remain unified, tie it all together.

  The story would have been ground breaking to us silverlight/wpf devs if you just came out and said. "Your apps you build today, will be available on the new win 8 app store, and run across windows 8, phone, tablet, xbox and media center."

  This has been the vision since day 1 of .net. time to cash in on this vision for once.
  

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  G.T.

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 08:08 PM | LINK

  We spent 2 years developing a WPF project, and after all what I have seen, I am defiantly going html5 + JavaScript.

  I am not targeting all browsers, that is an overkill, I am targeting Google Chrome, one browser only, I may target IE9 but again, why targeting the any horse when you can target the fastest horse :-)

  Before you start a large project, test the technology, test Silverlight, push it to its limits, let’s say, put 10,000 text boxes in a page with a stack panel and try to open it.

  Repeat the test with html and IE9

  Results: Silverlight is unable to open the page! No way. IE9 renders the page in less than a second :-)

  It is a meaningless test, but in real life you will always hit some limit somewhere, and you will start looking for workarounds.

  Nice test, IE9 renders the 10,000 controls in no time, Silverlight just can’t, why?

  <input type=text value="ddd"/>

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  Jamie H

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 08:13 PM | LINK

  So you are worried about being able to render 10,000 controls, but you're not worried that you are exclusively targeting a browser that has less than 20% of the market??????

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  prujohn

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 08:14 PM | LINK

  Psychlist1972

  None of us at Microsoft can say anything until //build/ in September. No one likes that, including me. That's all we can do, however.

  But someone at Microsoft DID say something.  They said HTML5/Javascript ( http://gizmodo.com/5807615/windows-8-and-its-incredibly-cool-new-touch-interface & http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2011/jun11/06-01corporatenews.aspx ).  Why can't any clarification be made about Silverlight in regards to that statement by Microsoft?  Or, if this information isn't correct regarding the HTML5/Javascript focus for Win8 apps, can't someone clarify that at least?

  
  

  Vote!

  http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1894125-main-language-for-the-windows-8-development
  

  Thanks,
  John
  LUCA Studios
  
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  neoearth

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 08:21 PM | LINK

  Chrome + HTML/JS doesn't fly where I work. (a global bank)

  It's IE + Security.

  If i were to drop the logic we require into javascript (easily hacked) I would be fired.

  Silverlight is an enterprise dream. The rich ui of a desktop app + the ability to distribute the app over the web to 10k+ users.

  Stop de-railing the topic.
  

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  G.T.

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 08:24 PM | LINK

  Jamie H

  So you are worried about being able to render 10,000 controls, but you're not worried that you are exclusively targeting a browser that has less than 20% of the market??????

  Targeting a specific browser is like targeting a .NET framework version, you target .NET 3.0 and you feel relaxed, no need to recompile the thing under 1.1 and fox bugs, 2.0 and fix bugs, 3.5 and fix bugs and compatibility issues.

  It is the same with the browser, when I build a business application that will be used inside a company, the business application have minimum system requirements, and in this case, one of the requirements is Google Chrome.

  
  

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  G.T.

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  Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

  Jun 03, 2011 08:28 PM | LINK

  Jamie H

  So you are worried about being able to render 10,000 controls

  It is performance that I am worried about, IE9 can render them in less than a second, Silverlight 4 cannot at all, and it speaks a lot about how the technology handles performance!