Also, my bet is that you'd be able to create one of those tiles in wpf or silverlight. I interpreted the video that being able to create those tiles natively in HTML5 is now an option, and I think that's cool. Maybe the tile views will need to be done in HTML5
or something, but not all the applications that they expand to. Think about it, the web browser existed as one of those tiles in the mozaic - do you think the web browser was created in HTML5? :)
Very good post, and you're likely on to something. Microsoft may be responding to what we want at this new conference that will supercede PDC(http://www.buildwindows.com/).
There's a lot of conflicting things going on, but others have postulated that the way they're running Windows 7 apps is through Virtualization, similar to the way you can run Windows XP apps on Windows 7. The
new apps would be built using HTML5 and JS,
but it's not exactly the normal browser, it's a modified browser that has OS hooks.
Some folks say this is wrong, however, you can get away with this on phones and tablets, and it does provide enterprises with a wealth of developers capable of building apps quickly, not to mention the consumer focused guys that want to build "Fart Apps".
So where does that leave us? Well, Mary Jo Foley postulates this,
"Build supersedes the Microsoft Professional Developers Conference (PDC), Microsoft’s near-annual gathering of developers interested in the company’s developer tools and platform futures. Like other Microsoft watchers, I’m expecting Microsoft to deliver
a test build of Windows 8, as well as a possible test build of Visual Studio 2012, in conjunction with the conference. And maybe Microsoft will finally raise the curtain on
“Jupiter,” its new XAML-based app model for Windows 8 there, too…."
We'll have to wait to see where this all goes, but it's crazy to to a demo and leave so many questions lingering.
The fact is that HTML/JS/JQuery/yada/yada are legitimate technologies and they are not going away.
As were donkies legitimate modes of transportation. WordPerfect was a legitimate technology. Netware was a legitimate technology. Microsoft gave its customers the option of not using those technologies. When Microsoft was leveraging its way into the browser
market, it added tons of properties and methods to the HTML DOM that provided HUGE value. Otherwise there was absolutely no reason to use IE. .NET and Silverlight was a continuation of that tradition. Now because of some brain dead monkies running the show,
they're catering to the ABM/Richard Stallman crowd. Where is the value add?
samw
Deal with it.
Don't have to, haven't for YEARS. If my option is work with POS5, I'll just change focus to Android or iPhone. If Microsoft is telling me I have to work with shit, I might as work with shit with a larger market share, i.e. iPhone or Droid. The only reason
that I've targetted Windows 7 phone is that the development environment isn't shit. That's the value add that Microsoft is now pissing away. Brilliant.
samw
Silverlight is ALSO (i.e. in addition to, along with, in conjunction, etc) a legitimate technology with a specific market and specific purpose.
If you see Silverlight purely as a "use it for what you can't do in HTML" well surprise to you, that's DRM video now. Silverlight is more than what you can do, but HOW you do it. That's why I could give a shit about HTML toolkits. It's the how, not the what.
You think Microsoft is going to keep investing in Silverlight if its only purpose is DRM video?
samw
Someone from Microsoft marketing might read this thread.
I didn't know Microsoft had a marketing department. Which wing in Woodland Park can I find them in?
2. They realized they would have to rebuild the core FX Engine of WPF/SL to achieve their performance, or even rewrite alot of the OS from unmanaged to managed code.
You really telling me tehy couldn't solve a problem on a fully fledged PC they already solved on smart phone devices? I don't think so.
The real question is, why is IE10 not executing XAP's natively. No need for a plugin on Windows and fully accelerated and integrated into the OS. That would be a nice SL story. But right now it sounds more like they going to rename Silverlight to Silverdusk.
Jan Hannemann
Research Associate University of Victoria
Please remember to mark the replies as answers if they answered your question
>>As were donkies legitimate modes of transportation. WordPerfect was a legitimate technology. Netware was a legitimate technology.
Oh stop your bawling. We still have donkies, we now have google docs, we now use tcip/ip what happened to ms network client (can't remember the name). MS used to be able to simply crush its competitors just by throwing out some new product. Those days are
gone. They need offer better products AND MARKET THEM WELL.
>>If Microsoft is telling me I have to work with ***, I might as work with *** with a larger market share, i.e. iPhone or Droid.
Yep. Every developer who reads this thread needs to take that same approach.
>>If you see Silverlight purely as a "use it for what you can't do in HTML" well surprise to you
No! Not at all! The problem is that many people do see it that way. As I said before MS needs to position this product and play to its strengths and sell it to people who will understand it. It's not JUST an alternative to HTML, or a substitute.
It's a whole different architecture. Ask any pundit who has engaged in the "HTML5 vs. Silverlight war" and they will not be able to tell you this (or they know but are deliberately being deceptive).
What disappoints me the most is the timing - just a week ago Silverlight seemed to be the perfect choice for new development - with Mango finally bringing it to a decent level on Windows Phone and all the rumours that it will be THE thing for Windows 8.
And now...
Alright people. I've never had to edit posts before, but I just edited a bunch. I've watched this thread since yesterday, and finally felt I needed to do some editing for language and to remove insults. I didn't edit out comments about Microosoft, just posts
that insulted other developers.
I don't want to close this thread. I don't want to ban people. Keep the discussion civil and on-topic. There will be no bashing of languages, technologies, or most importantly, other developers on this forum. Consider this fair warning.
The people who have posted rude comments about HTML and HTML developers have hurt Silverlight's case in the community. Seriously. You've done damage. Stop it.
As to everything else: You all saw a very small technology demo of Windows 8, and a brief press release. We're all being quiet right now because we can't comment on this. It's not because we don't care, aren't listening, have given up, or are agreeing or
disagreeing with you on something. All I can say for now is to please wait until September. If we say more before then, that will be great, but there are no promises (and I'm not aware of any plans) to say more right now. I'm very sorry that there's nothing
else to share at the moment. I know that answer is terrible, but it's all that we can say right now. Seriously.
This radio silence is normal mode of operation for many companies 365 days of the year. Unfortunately, since we're so open with plans, since we share so much, and since we have such a solid history of helping and listening to our developer community, it's
extra obvious when we're being quiet.
[rock]Pete[hardPlace]
Developer Community Program Manager - XAML, WPF, Silverlight, .NETMF/Gadgeteer
10rem.net - Pete Brown's site and blog | twitter: @pete_brown
I work for the Developer Guidance group in Microsoft. Opinions are my own.
Wouldn't integrating IE that closely with the operating system again cause some antitrust concerns? Oh well, I am sure Microsoft lawyers have that one covered :). I know I wouldn't want IE that integrated with my OS, unless IE 10 is going to be a lot more
stable than the current IE. But a browser has in the end a different purpose than an OS. Your OS is much more trusted, while your browser has to assume completely untrusted code by default. But I am sure Microsoft knows their stuff on this one and will be
able to run all this smoothly.
I have developed web based applications long enough to absolutely dislike HTML+Javascript. The ability to build front-end + back-end in one programming language (same skillset) is awesome. And don't tell me that we have to use Javascript on the back-end
as well (classic ASP was not that great!). And even with HTML5 I still think it's completely unsuited for writing large applications. Surely Microsoft would not abandon it's native application stack? Apple didn't drop Objective C yet, did they? If Microsoft
does drop all native development down the drain, life will go on (but hopefully not as an HTML5+Javascript only developer).
mmh, to promote HTML5 for Windows 8 now and nothing about SL or .NET til September is also a message. Very sad one!
But I agree, it's not about bashing HTML/JS, it's about the future of the best App framework ever. THis thread is not ment to be a flame war against HTML/JS. Time to calm down.
Jan Hannemann
Research Associate University of Victoria
Please remember to mark the replies as answers if they answered your question
samcov
Participant
1669 Points
717 Posts
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 09:55 PM | LINK
Very good post, and you're likely on to something. Microsoft may be responding to what we want at this new conference that will supercede PDC(http://www.buildwindows.com/).
There's a lot of conflicting things going on, but others have postulated that the way they're running Windows 7 apps is through Virtualization, similar to the way you can run Windows XP apps on Windows 7. The new apps would be built using HTML5 and JS, but it's not exactly the normal browser, it's a modified browser that has OS hooks.
Some folks say this is wrong, however, you can get away with this on phones and tablets, and it does provide enterprises with a wealth of developers capable of building apps quickly, not to mention the consumer focused guys that want to build "Fart Apps".
So where does that leave us? Well, Mary Jo Foley postulates this,
"Build supersedes the Microsoft Professional Developers Conference (PDC), Microsoft’s near-annual gathering of developers interested in the company’s developer tools and platform futures. Like other Microsoft watchers, I’m expecting Microsoft to deliver a test build of Windows 8, as well as a possible test build of Visual Studio 2012, in conjunction with the conference. And maybe Microsoft will finally raise the curtain on “Jupiter,” its new XAML-based app model for Windows 8 there, too…."
We'll have to wait to see where this all goes, but it's crazy to to a demo and leave so many questions lingering.
jackbond
Contributor
5812 Points
1559 Posts
Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 09:59 PM | LINK
As were donkies legitimate modes of transportation. WordPerfect was a legitimate technology. Netware was a legitimate technology. Microsoft gave its customers the option of not using those technologies. When Microsoft was leveraging its way into the browser market, it added tons of properties and methods to the HTML DOM that provided HUGE value. Otherwise there was absolutely no reason to use IE. .NET and Silverlight was a continuation of that tradition. Now because of some brain dead monkies running the show, they're catering to the ABM/Richard Stallman crowd. Where is the value add?
Don't have to, haven't for YEARS. If my option is work with POS5, I'll just change focus to Android or iPhone. If Microsoft is telling me I have to work with shit, I might as work with shit with a larger market share, i.e. iPhone or Droid. The only reason that I've targetted Windows 7 phone is that the development environment isn't shit. That's the value add that Microsoft is now pissing away. Brilliant.
If you see Silverlight purely as a "use it for what you can't do in HTML" well surprise to you, that's DRM video now. Silverlight is more than what you can do, but HOW you do it. That's why I could give a shit about HTML toolkits. It's the how, not the what. You think Microsoft is going to keep investing in Silverlight if its only purpose is DRM video?
I didn't know Microsoft had a marketing department. Which wing in Woodland Park can I find them in?
Khet - The first Silverlight multiplayer game
Zork I: The Great Underground Empire
jackbond
Contributor
5812 Points
1559 Posts
Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:11 PM | LINK
[Edited out more disrespect - Pete]
Khet - The first Silverlight multiplayer game
Zork I: The Great Underground Empire
bitdisaster
Participant
1472 Points
338 Posts
Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:13 PM | LINK
You really telling me tehy couldn't solve a problem on a fully fledged PC they already solved on smart phone devices? I don't think so.
The real question is, why is IE10 not executing XAP's natively. No need for a plugin on Windows and fully accelerated and integrated into the OS. That would be a nice SL story. But right now it sounds more like they going to rename Silverlight to Silverdusk.
Research Associate University of Victoria
Please remember to mark the replies as answers if they answered your question
kevinsbennett
Member
56 Points
51 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:28 PM | LINK
bitdisaster, check out this post: http://jeremiahmorrill.com/2011/02/14/a-critical-deep-dive-into-the-wpf-rendering-system/
samw
Member
164 Points
282 Posts
Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:28 PM | LINK
>>As were donkies legitimate modes of transportation. WordPerfect was a legitimate technology. Netware was a legitimate technology.
Oh stop your bawling. We still have donkies, we now have google docs, we now use tcip/ip what happened to ms network client (can't remember the name). MS used to be able to simply crush its competitors just by throwing out some new product. Those days are gone. They need offer better products AND MARKET THEM WELL.
>>If Microsoft is telling me I have to work with ***, I might as work with *** with a larger market share, i.e. iPhone or Droid.
Yep. Every developer who reads this thread needs to take that same approach.
>>If you see Silverlight purely as a "use it for what you can't do in HTML" well surprise to you
No! Not at all! The problem is that many people do see it that way. As I said before MS needs to position this product and play to its strengths and sell it to people who will understand it. It's not JUST an alternative to HTML, or a substitute. It's a whole different architecture. Ask any pundit who has engaged in the "HTML5 vs. Silverlight war" and they will not be able to tell you this (or they know but are deliberately being deceptive).
Futurix
Member
12 Points
9 Posts
Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:40 PM | LINK
What disappoints me the most is the timing - just a week ago Silverlight seemed to be the perfect choice for new development - with Mango finally bringing it to a decent level on Windows Phone and all the rumours that it will be THE thing for Windows 8. And now...
Psychlist1972
Contributor
6802 Points
1079 Posts
Microsoft
Moderator
Re: Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:44 PM | LINK
Alright people. I've never had to edit posts before, but I just edited a bunch. I've watched this thread since yesterday, and finally felt I needed to do some editing for language and to remove insults. I didn't edit out comments about Microosoft, just posts that insulted other developers.
I don't want to close this thread. I don't want to ban people. Keep the discussion civil and on-topic. There will be no bashing of languages, technologies, or most importantly, other developers on this forum. Consider this fair warning.
The people who have posted rude comments about HTML and HTML developers have hurt Silverlight's case in the community. Seriously. You've done damage. Stop it.
As to everything else: You all saw a very small technology demo of Windows 8, and a brief press release. We're all being quiet right now because we can't comment on this. It's not because we don't care, aren't listening, have given up, or are agreeing or disagreeing with you on something. All I can say for now is to please wait until September. If we say more before then, that will be great, but there are no promises (and I'm not aware of any plans) to say more right now. I'm very sorry that there's nothing else to share at the moment. I know that answer is terrible, but it's all that we can say right now. Seriously.
This radio silence is normal mode of operation for many companies 365 days of the year. Unfortunately, since we're so open with plans, since we share so much, and since we have such a solid history of helping and listening to our developer community, it's extra obvious when we're being quiet.
[rock]Pete[hardPlace]
10rem.net - Pete Brown's site and blog | twitter: @pete_brown
I work for the Developer Guidance group in Microsoft. Opinions are my own.
mr2
Member
62 Points
36 Posts
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:52 PM | LINK
Wouldn't integrating IE that closely with the operating system again cause some antitrust concerns? Oh well, I am sure Microsoft lawyers have that one covered :). I know I wouldn't want IE that integrated with my OS, unless IE 10 is going to be a lot more stable than the current IE. But a browser has in the end a different purpose than an OS. Your OS is much more trusted, while your browser has to assume completely untrusted code by default. But I am sure Microsoft knows their stuff on this one and will be able to run all this smoothly.
I have developed web based applications long enough to absolutely dislike HTML+Javascript. The ability to build front-end + back-end in one programming language (same skillset) is awesome. And don't tell me that we have to use Javascript on the back-end as well (classic ASP was not that great!). And even with HTML5 I still think it's completely unsuited for writing large applications. Surely Microsoft would not abandon it's native application stack? Apple didn't drop Objective C yet, did they? If Microsoft does drop all native development down the drain, life will go on (but hopefully not as an HTML5+Javascript only developer).
bitdisaster
Participant
1472 Points
338 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 10:55 PM | LINK
mmh, to promote HTML5 for Windows 8 now and nothing about SL or .NET til September is also a message. Very sad one!
But I agree, it's not about bashing HTML/JS, it's about the future of the best App framework ever. THis thread is not ment to be a flame war against HTML/JS. Time to calm down.
Research Associate University of Victoria
Please remember to mark the replies as answers if they answered your question