I'm really just finally starting out in WPF. I really like it and if I'm honest I'm not a great fan of HTML/CSS because of the inconsistencies between browsers. I'm aware I'm not alone in that respect. My worry isn't about historical investment in WPF, but
the fact that I'm just starting out. I hope I'm not writing the new Betamax for my new apps.
However, If one takes a deep breath, relaxes and looks at it again, it's unlikely that .NET will be dropped totally. MS do have a good history (often to their own detriment) of backwards-compatibility, and I reckon that in the fullness of time there will
be "layers" of apps: 1) HTML5/CSS3 for tiles and "widgets", SL might be part of the "tile" story. 2) LOB apps that want to talk to local databases etc but still solve the business problems in a RAD-fashion will be WPF (WinForms will be supported but possibly
discouraged for new apps) and 3) those apps that need to get down to nitty-gritty close-to-the-metal stuff or require super high performance will be for C/C++ devs with brains far larger than mine.
It's not much different from WP7 apps being totally SL-based. They're trying to tidy-up a long-established line of inconsistent apps and UI tech to give "mom and pop" users a better experience. My Dad loves his iPhone but still struggles with the fact that
Windows isn't the Pit of Success when it comes to usability and stability.
Let's face it, advanced users (application/IT support, testing teams, DBAs, developers) will not use this new HTML5 veneer, because it's not meant for them. This is MS taking a look at their customer base, comparing it with the iPhone customer base, and
realising they need a simpler OS UI that allows people to watch videos, check emails, mess with their pictures etc. It's simply moving to a "task-based UI" on a grander scale.
Of course, tooling goes a long way to calm .NET devs in these situations. At the moment many may be worried by the prospect of using Notepad to write their Windows apps and struggle with debugging and implementation inconsistencies. However I'm sure that
companies like JetBrains and DevExpress will be there to help.
pretty hilarious. I wonder if it will be able to show HTML too.
*ouch!* that was funny ('will IE show HTML too?').
Nice to have one laugh in this MS tornado wreckage, the debris made up of the .NET framework apparently. Ahhh, I hope that is not true, but if we have to wait till September to find out? Go to BUILD site, I bet all you'll hear of at that conference, after
the 3month wait, is more html/js hoopla, I want to hear about their plans for .NET as the future of rich application development.
What about the real developers that have been committed to Windows? As Gates said, the future is all driven by software, ... if us .NET people had abandoned MS, where would they be?
Who can't wait to wait for 3 months so that they can just hear even more
about the wonder of html/js?
HOW ABOUT A FUTURE OF .NET CONFERENCE? WHERE'S THE LOVE.
And There Was Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth Amoung SL-ists
BWAHAHAH
And I couldn't be happier.
Wait a minute, are telling me that while many developers are suffering as their investment in SL is going mostly down the drain, when their livelihood is in jeopardy because many SL projects are thrown out the window, you are HAPPY??
In a word, SURE. These developers didn't and still DON'T give a damn about what the OPEN web means.....
Hey "FanBaby", thanks for chiming in so we could hear from one of those millions of html/js fans, and how they are going to be the next generation of Windows developers. Yeah sure.
Don't worry they will still be a place in browser and out of browser Silverlight apps! I'm still working 20 hours a day working on silverlightmarket.com.
It will enable you guys to push silverlight apps to a marketplace with no annual cost and also only 10-20% commission (based on apps created).
I'll update you guys in a few months. Must get on!
If anyone is interested in getting involved with the project, pop me a private message :)
I certainly hope this was another miscommunication on MS part. If I was someone planning on making a business out of Windows Phone 7.X apps and Windows 8 apps targetted for tablets I would be pissed.
I dont want to have to write a Silverlight/XNA based UI with client side processing done with C#/VB.NET and all the power of .NET Framework for Windows Phone 7.x and then have to build a Windows 8 client with HTML5 and JavaScript. What if I made an XNA or
XNA/Silverlight based game that I want to run on Windows Phone 7.x and then on Windows 8 tablets?
It is important to understand that what iPhone/iPad and Android phone/tablets have done is once again put rich client application development in the forefront. Why would MS with all the .NET developers in the world give away the productivity leadership
they hold over Objective C and Java so they can build HTML5/JavaScript based apps.
At this point html5/js is a horrible development platform - not to be compared for developing business apps with SL/WPF/C#. I have not seen a single project developed purely in html/js. In fact JS sucks so much that people prefer regenerating and resending
the code from the server for purely client side operations.
I just hope that the MS failure is going to be fast and it will get back to its senses.
Nick Polyak
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/silverlight/PrismTutorial_Part1.aspx
In 90s MS beated apple because the developers were producing many more apps for MS than for Apple. That was partly due to the fact that MS cared more about its developers and created good development tools and languages.
With HTML/JS coming in the forefront, the number of new applications for MS platform is going to shrink drastically
Nick Polyak
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/silverlight/PrismTutorial_Part1.aspx
actually in 1:20 into the video it clearly states that this is an introduction of a new platform for building these kinds of apps.
I dont see how that equates to "you cant use silverlight".
Actually Sir, I never say anything like that. Of course they wouldn't just kill .NET. I did say that it very well may indicate a
demotion of WPF and Silverlight as the future, which are a billion times more pleasing to work with, the best programming framework ever, in place for the worst? We used to talk about wanting Windows to fully integrate with WPF (now also Silverlight,
but it needs to be both), now, when the day has come, we get Html and JavaScarriness in place of the beauty we know.
Also, I think you miss the point, which is not just what it says at 1:20, but what it
doesn't say at 1:30. They talk about this new windows 8 app model, and .NET WPF / SL is not mentioned as part of that. You don't think that is a problem? Gee, open your eyes please. Look at that BUILD site, it is ONLY about Html5, nothing .NET.
WAITING FOR A MS RESPONSE ASSURING US OF THE *SOLID* FUTURE OF .NET IN THE ONLY OS THAT SUPPORTS IT.
nbarnwell
Member
2 Points
1 Post
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 12:11 PM | LINK
I'm really just finally starting out in WPF. I really like it and if I'm honest I'm not a great fan of HTML/CSS because of the inconsistencies between browsers. I'm aware I'm not alone in that respect. My worry isn't about historical investment in WPF, but the fact that I'm just starting out. I hope I'm not writing the new Betamax for my new apps.
However, If one takes a deep breath, relaxes and looks at it again, it's unlikely that .NET will be dropped totally. MS do have a good history (often to their own detriment) of backwards-compatibility, and I reckon that in the fullness of time there will be "layers" of apps: 1) HTML5/CSS3 for tiles and "widgets", SL might be part of the "tile" story. 2) LOB apps that want to talk to local databases etc but still solve the business problems in a RAD-fashion will be WPF (WinForms will be supported but possibly discouraged for new apps) and 3) those apps that need to get down to nitty-gritty close-to-the-metal stuff or require super high performance will be for C/C++ devs with brains far larger than mine.
It's not much different from WP7 apps being totally SL-based. They're trying to tidy-up a long-established line of inconsistent apps and UI tech to give "mom and pop" users a better experience. My Dad loves his iPhone but still struggles with the fact that Windows isn't the Pit of Success when it comes to usability and stability.
Let's face it, advanced users (application/IT support, testing teams, DBAs, developers) will not use this new HTML5 veneer, because it's not meant for them. This is MS taking a look at their customer base, comparing it with the iPhone customer base, and realising they need a simpler OS UI that allows people to watch videos, check emails, mess with their pictures etc. It's simply moving to a "task-based UI" on a grander scale.
Of course, tooling goes a long way to calm .NET devs in these situations. At the moment many may be worried by the prospect of using Notepad to write their Windows apps and struggle with debugging and implementation inconsistencies. However I'm sure that companies like JetBrains and DevExpress will be there to help.
It will be fine, don't worry. :)
eclipsoft
Member
44 Points
38 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 12:44 PM | LINK
*ouch!* that was funny ('will IE show HTML too?').
Nice to have one laugh in this MS tornado wreckage, the debris made up of the .NET framework apparently. Ahhh, I hope that is not true, but if we have to wait till September to find out? Go to BUILD site, I bet all you'll hear of at that conference, after the 3month wait, is more html/js hoopla, I want to hear about their plans for .NET as the future of rich application development.
What about the real developers that have been committed to Windows? As Gates said, the future is all driven by software, ... if us .NET people had abandoned MS, where would they be?
Who can't wait to wait for 3 months so that they can just hear even more about the wonder of html/js?
HOW ABOUT A FUTURE OF .NET CONFERENCE? WHERE'S THE LOVE.
dotnetextensions.com
eclipsoft
Member
44 Points
38 Posts
Re: And There Was Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth Amoung SL-ists
Jun 02, 2011 12:55 PM | LINK
Hey "FanBaby", thanks for chiming in so we could hear from one of those millions of html/js fans, and how they are going to be the next generation of Windows developers. Yeah sure.
dotnetextensions.com
arudland_1987
Member
2 Points
1 Post
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 12:58 PM | LINK
Hey man,
Don't worry they will still be a place in browser and out of browser Silverlight apps! I'm still working 20 hours a day working on silverlightmarket.com.
It will enable you guys to push silverlight apps to a marketplace with no annual cost and also only 10-20% commission (based on apps created).
I'll update you guys in a few months. Must get on!
If anyone is interested in getting involved with the project, pop me a private message :)
Many Thanks,
Ash.
Raynos2
Member
18 Points
9 Posts
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 01:32 PM | LINK
You guys do realise that of course there going to keep SL support.
But html5 / js is a perfectly solid development platform. It's fantastic to be able to port part of your website to a native windows app.
There are plenty of advantages to using html5 / js and there not to be frowned upon.
thx1140
Member
10 Points
5 Posts
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 01:34 PM | LINK
I certainly hope this was another miscommunication on MS part. If I was someone planning on making a business out of Windows Phone 7.X apps and Windows 8 apps targetted for tablets I would be pissed.
I dont want to have to write a Silverlight/XNA based UI with client side processing done with C#/VB.NET and all the power of .NET Framework for Windows Phone 7.x and then have to build a Windows 8 client with HTML5 and JavaScript. What if I made an XNA or XNA/Silverlight based game that I want to run on Windows Phone 7.x and then on Windows 8 tablets?
It is important to understand that what iPhone/iPad and Android phone/tablets have done is once again put rich client application development in the forefront. Why would MS with all the .NET developers in the world give away the productivity leadership they hold over Objective C and Java so they can build HTML5/JavaScript based apps.
npolyak1
Member
160 Points
85 Posts
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 01:44 PM | LINK
At this point html5/js is a horrible development platform - not to be compared for developing business apps with SL/WPF/C#. I have not seen a single project developed purely in html/js. In fact JS sucks so much that people prefer regenerating and resending the code from the server for purely client side operations.
I just hope that the MS failure is going to be fast and it will get back to its senses.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/silverlight/PrismTutorial_Part1.aspx
npolyak1
Member
160 Points
85 Posts
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 01:51 PM | LINK
In 90s MS beated apple because the developers were producing many more apps for MS than for Apple. That was partly due to the fact that MS cared more about its developers and created good development tools and languages.
With HTML/JS coming in the forefront, the number of new applications for MS platform is going to shrink drastically
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/silverlight/PrismTutorial_Part1.aspx
eclipsoft
Member
44 Points
38 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 01:58 PM | LINK
Actually Sir, I never say anything like that. Of course they wouldn't just kill .NET. I did say that it very well may indicate a demotion of WPF and Silverlight as the future, which are a billion times more pleasing to work with, the best programming framework ever, in place for the worst? We used to talk about wanting Windows to fully integrate with WPF (now also Silverlight, but it needs to be both), now, when the day has come, we get Html and JavaScarriness in place of the beauty we know.
Also, I think you miss the point, which is not just what it says at 1:20, but what it doesn't say at 1:30. They talk about this new windows 8 app model, and .NET WPF / SL is not mentioned as part of that. You don't think that is a problem? Gee, open your eyes please. Look at that BUILD site, it is ONLY about Html5, nothing .NET.
WAITING FOR A MS RESPONSE ASSURING US OF THE *SOLID* FUTURE OF .NET IN THE ONLY OS THAT SUPPORTS IT.
dotnetextensions.com
gpgpu
Member
53 Points
29 Posts
Re: Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf
Jun 02, 2011 02:03 PM | LINK
yeah, we know what HTML5/JS can do
but do you realize what HTML5/JS can not do?