Feedback on this Website

Re: Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

JulianJP — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 07:56:24 GMT

Hi Jesse,

I took a look at the links you posted. This sounds brilliant!! the opening paragraph made me smile from ear to ear. This promises to be a great success, and is definately what I was hoping for. thanks, you're tha man :)

Reading between the lines, I think I now understand why the rest of the tutorial development halted completely, it would seem that everyone is re-writing them to fit in with silverlight 3. I guess it has to be done some time, sooner rather than later.

Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

JesseLiberty — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:21:48 GMT

You may want to take a look at my recent announcement of AgOpenSource, yet another effort to meet this need. I hope to see you there.

Thanks.

-jesse

Re: Re: Re: Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

JulianJP — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:16:46 GMT

*cough* AdventureWorks ops part 2 ?*cough*

Re: Re: Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

heuertk — Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:08:06 GMT

As I look at the last date of this post (Sep 2008) I'm embarrassed that it has taken us this long to get even the first part uploaded. I can emit all the excuses but I won't. Bottom line is we were late. The Application Corner first app (part1) is finally up and more content will be added within the next 30-60 days with a continuation of this application as well as other sample applications in that area. Visit http://silverlight.net/learn to see the link.

Re: Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

heuertk — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:26:35 GMT

liquid_eye_media: Hi Ed. As I mentioned offline, it's not quite ready yet. We had some other priority things with the site that we had to accomplish this past week. One of them was making it much clearer that we are providing VB code content. You'll start to see two download buttons (previously the code was both only in one download) so that you can choose which code to download.

Re: Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

liquid_eye_media — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 05:15:27 GMT

Tim:

I remember this post from you a week or so ago, where is the link to the Application Corner, I cannot find the link.

Please provide link and make it accessible on main page, it's not readily apparent.

Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

Jim Parshall — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:44:47 GMT

Mark Washabaugh:
The showcase has some great examples, but the tutorials are "2nd grade-ish" when compared to them.

Mark Washabaugh:
I think it's a fair assessment to say that the preponderance of developers checking out this website are fairly knowledgeable with .Net, so why all the "baby-steps" in learning Silverlight? Give me some real life hard core tutorials!! I can take it.

Perhaps you can, perhaps you can not, yet one thing is for certain, not all the users here can. This is a problem I run into all time teaching classes with live students in the audience. The advanced developers are itching for hard and deep content, while the beginners are struggling with the basics. One must remember not to place YOUR experience as the bar for the tutorials written and presented.

Developers have a nasty habit of thinking EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING they do. WRONG!

There is just as much a place for baby steps as there is for moon walks.

To quote my bud at Apple, "Stop thinking like a computer and start thinking like a human."

Mark Washabaugh:
We want complete tutorials on complete website applications, not snippets of "Hello World", or watch the button change color. I myself would appreciate a tutorial discussion on building a COMPLETE SILVERLIGHT WEBSITE APP

So would I.

I currently am writing such a beast for Sharepoint. A full app from beginning to end with videos and tutorials to go along with it. It is hard. It is very, very hard.

The main reason I have found this type of thing is not out there very much is that authors have a limited amount of time. We don't have months on end to do a huge full scale app and debugging testing the code on all platforms is just miserable. So, we constrain our work to a particular situation that is isolated and small. This way we manage to contain the scale and work necessary to complete the learning experience.

If you think this is bad, try teaching .Net or Cocoa programming!

We give the students all sorts of parts ( steering wheel, tires, engine, carpet etc. ) then promptly lay them all on the floor and walk out. Sigh.

I have to do it. All us teachers have to unless we have a special circumstance.

I would love to do what you are asking, but my Sharepoint and .Net application comes first. :)

Mark Washabaugh:
Of course, I could be totally cynical about this, and suspect the thin tutorials were done so on purpose, so certain Microsoft ppl can make millions writing/selling books on the technology with a greater breadth into real life applications.

Ah Microsoft, once again you have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!

I doubt that. Seriously, Microsoft makes plenty of money. I am sure they have better things to do that manipulate the publishing world to ensure more money. HOWEVER, Microsoft is VERY BAD at doing good tutorials. They are getting better as time goes on though and some of these Silverlight ones are rockin'. But, they still forget there are people that don't know what they take for granted.

Please try not to hate on Microsoft too much, but call them on issues.

Oh and if you think you make millions writing a computer book, uh, you could not be farther from wrong. Some authors do pretty well, but by no means all.

Also, there is a place for community in development and book writing. Microsoft authors can't think of everything. Apple authors can't think of everything.

That is why there is a place for you and me and everyone else to share our explorations!

That is the fun of this!

Re: Silverlight.net just [started] cutting it!!

Varadhg — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:42:41 GMT

Here's Woodgrove Financials Beta 2 Source..Got from this --> http://home.infusionblogs.com/smillett/archive/2008/05.aspx Blog post.

Source -->http://www.cookingwithxaml.com/meals/financials/source/SilverlightinFinancialsSource.zip

Gopi

Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

JesseLiberty — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 03:14:51 GMT

Well, it's a great theory, a company of 80,000 people in service of making me rich. I kinda' like it, but I haven't been able to make it work yet. Oops, feeding the flames. Let me try that again. I understand how it can seem like Microsoft is all about making money, and we can even have a conversatoin about whether that is a bad thing for a company to be about, but I can only tell you that in my limited experience, most of the folks I've met in my year at Microsoft are more or less like me: in need of feeding their family, working very hard, and trying to make cool products with what we think is potentially a very (very) cool platform.

I think there is real merit in what is being said about the ned for advanced tutorials and videos but I also think we can and often do go way over the top the other way; ignoring the on-ramps that folks need to approach a new technology. When I talk to user groups or give presentations I usually hear two things: "give me much more depth" and "give me much more of an overview, " That's really not surprising; People are coming at Silverlight from very different places, and my particular niche in writing (such as it is) tends to be in "telling the story" of the technology which often means that I'm best for the left 2/3 of the experience/learning bell curve.(More Richard Dawkins than Steven Hawkings - but enough ego for both). Which is fine because Tim is great for the nitty gritty advanced material that I tend to cut.

. There is no doubt that the tutorials were intended to start at the beginning and work forwarde, and there is no doubt that we need to get deeper into the guts of real world concerns. We've been trying to step that up, not only in the tutorials but in the blog, in videos and in webcasts, but my personal feeling is you can't just leap over people's heads you need some kind of ladder that folks feel they can climb.

That said, Tim's application corner will fill a real need and that will be terrific. We're also working on some other ideas, and yes,Tim and I have a book coming, but if you honestly believe anyone gets rich writing books these days, please take a closer look at the industry (those days are long gone). In any case, I think you'll find that we'll continue to pour our heart and soul into the material we present on Silverlight.net before during and after publication. (wow, that can sound very defensive).

I'd love to have the discussion some time of why I, for one, gave up 12 years of consulting to come to work for Microsoft; it was an interesting and difficult choice. The very short version is that I try to be ready to change my busines focus when needed. In 1990 the change for me was from C /Unix to C++/Windows. In 2000 it was from C++ to C#. When I attended Mix of 2007 I decided within 24 hours to change my business to Silverlight but then I received a call asking me to come to Redmond to interview. I politely said "no way" (actually there was a third word in the middle). But they were persuasuive and I was lucky enough to go meet some very bright people who were a lot more concerned with building something amazingly cool than with crushing anything or minting money. I've just finished my first year. It was great. Not perfect, but great. I think if you look at the hiring of Ray Ozzie, the promotion of Scott Gu, the hiring of Scott Hanselman... there are a number of very good signs of what is happening in the development division.

Silverlight and Silverlight.net are a work in progress. Yes, we need to meet the needs you've identified, to provide for the adanced and seirous programmer who wants intensive material in large bites; but you really need to understand where you are on the bell curve and where we are in the life cycle of this product. That said, I think the next few months will show a lot more of what you're looking for, along with a much better ability to find what you're looking for.

Or, if not, feel free to slap us around.

Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

Romulus2886 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:30:58 GMT

Speaking on behalf of the other side.

I do not think you so called .Net guys should hold your breath.

Microsoft only cares about money not you. I laughed when I read there were no real world applications on Silverlight.net that you can learn from. Of course there isn't. Microsoft doesn't care about you programmers. And I think you last paragraph hit it on the nail. It's all a pyramid scheme. No one joins Microsoft unless they can get rich. Your so called Silverlight technology is just that guys. It is a pyramid scheme for newbie Microsoft people to make money off you. Microsoft lures employess on the premise they can write books aqnd get rich. Don't you get it now?? Duh! Microsoft doesn't care about it's programmers, it's all about money. Go ahead, sign up for Silverlight and buy the books, that's what they want you to do. As for me, Adobe is the only real company worth pursuing.

Silverlight only has a future if the proponents can make money off you. That is what Microsoft is all about these days. So go ahead, buy the books and make Jesser Liberty and McDonald rich. That's what it's all about. It's just a sophisticated pyramid scheme to lure programmers to work for Microsoft. Buy their books, that's what they want you to do!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

heuertk — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:10:25 GMT

Glad you could log back in Mark!

As to the control feedback, we plan on having a good set of controls as Silverlight progresses and will ship some controls along with 3rd party providers shipping controls. A rich text editor from MSFT will not be in the release of SL2. There is an open source project that is quite a bit along: http://www.codeplex.com/richtextedit that you may want to look at as well.

I will update this thread when the application corner stuff starts hitting.

Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

Mark Washabaugh — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:08:44 GMT

Hey Tim:

First off, I am able to log in successfully now, so I must have done something wrong prior.

With regard to your question: Yes, Yes, Yes! What you propose is exactly what my mojo requires! From your direct email to me, I understand it is your intention to get the Application Corner out in some order next week. May I tell you, I await your intuitive skills on this matter, in type, with baited breath.

Once last thing, somewhat unrelated. I recall somewhere MS was asking for feedback for anything anyone would like to see in the final release. I myself am looking for something in particular as far as controls are concerned.

If you recall from my prior email to you, I am developing a major Ajax app, that I now want to wrap in SL. However, it appears that the control (Rich Text Editor) as produced by such companies as Telerik, will not be available for sometime. And, as the gods of programming would have it, that control happens to be an integral part of my app. I knew this going into the conversion of my project to full SL, hoping that the proverbial market would correct that omission in SL. So, if at all possible, Telerik and the like have enough of my money, can the final release of SL possibly have in its control toolbox a Rich Text Editor control? (I am trying to shift content management over to the client, but for this to be done successfully, the client must be able to dictate font family, size, color, image/video/file uploads and so forth.)

I cannot adequately express to you how eager I am to see the final release of SL. My name may not be "Claire", but you don't have to be "Claire Voyant" to see what the next generation of web sites will be. I really, really, really do not want to learn AS/Flex 3.

Thanks for your positive feedback to my, unintentional, griping.

Mark

Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

heuertk — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:36:56 GMT

Hi Mark,

This is great feedback...and if you could see my smiling it is because I've been talking with my manager on the roadmap for just such information. We're just a few guys here cranking away at various things the best we can, but clearly we need to step it up a bit more in longer-form tutorial information. I've been creating a roadmap for a series on the site that we're calling the "Application Corner" where we build an application from start to finish. I'm happy to share my roadmap of ideas with you here. The app would be a customer order management system with differing users and would cover:

structure/data entity model
service layer
administrative ui
sales/rep ui
customer/order management scenarios
databinding
data relationships (master/detail as an example)
applicaiton partitioning
reporting dashboard information using charts

I hope this might be along the lines of the type of information you are looking for as well. I'm open to ideas of how I can make that area better. It's been on my to-do list too long and some things have been coming up to be honest, but that is no excuse for us making a priority to get more progressive content out there.

The how-do-I content has shown to be successful to a lot of our visitors and will remain a key part of providing isolated information on various aspects of Silverlight, but we do need to do better in showing the broader picture...I'm hoping to do that for you.

Thanks again for the feedback and if you have things you want to see on that list, please share them with me here or offline as well (timheuer <at> you know where :-)).

Re: Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

liquid_eye_media — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:19:05 GMT

I am glad to see I am not alone. Mark, you have identified something that I think many developers are wondering.

If I may take it a step further for my own gripe: Where are the Visual Basic examples. It just seems everything here is for C# and very little for VB folks.

I too would like to see how to build a complete silverlight website too. I agree those showcase examples were real life applications that more dicussion should be offered in the tutorials insofar as how to replicate.

You have raised an interesting point at the end of your blog that I really never thought of, but now am wondering. Are these tutorials so minimal in real life examples just so the pros can make money selling books on the subject? Very interesting.

Silverlight.net just doesn't cut it

Mark Washabaugh — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:37:37 GMT

Where are all the real world applications on this new technology Microsoft is hoping to overtake Adobe with?

The showcase has some great examples, but the tutorials are "2nd grade-ish" when compared to them. Case in point:

I see two great websites in the showcase that, to me, are the best in real world apps, eg.

1. Media Luna (http://www.medialunacafe.com.br/beta/)

2. Woodgrove Financial (http://www.cookingwithxaml.com/meals/financials/default.html)

The tutorials pale in trying to teach you how to make examples like above. Moreover, I managed to find a site that allowed you to download Woodgrove Financial source code but it was loaded with errors.

I eagerly greeted the Silverlight technology as I really wanted to utilize my .Net programming skills to create "fluid websites", but so far I am just plain disappointed with the tutorials on this site.

But as I think it serves little to just complain with out offering suggestions, here is my suggestion to the powers that be on Silverlight.net:

We want complete tutorials on complete website applications, not snippets of "Hello World", or watch the button change color. I myself would appreciate a tutorial discussion on building a COMPLETE SILVERLIGHT WEBSITE APP that offers, among other things, fade in and fade out / slide in and slide out of Xaml pages as the user clicks on a respective button. I would like to see how to create a web app with silverlight that maintains state with previously selected Xaml files in the background with values still retiscent in memory, user tips windows, remote database connection, user roles, order processing, etc.

I think it's a fair assessment to say that the preponderance of developers checking out this website are fairly knowledgeable with .Net, so why all the "baby-steps" in learning Silverlight? Give me some real life hard core tutorials!! I can take it.

I have seen the "Page Switcher" tutorial by Jesse Liberty, but again it pales as a major real life app. A real life app doesn't have redundancy of a navigation control on every page!

The two examples above, SEEM to offer a canvas property that the selected Xamls are populated into. The Page Switcher doesn't show such demonstration.

And how about a tutorial of dynamically loading data, as opposed to hard coding the data in the code-behind. I haven't seen, and of course I may have missed it, a tutorial showing how to load a remote XML file into a Silverlight app. I did see a hard coding of data in the code behind to populate a list box, but who does that in the real world?!?!

Again, while I was really hopeful that Silverlight would afford me to excel compared to other web developers, I really think that who ever is in charge of the Silverlight.net website and the promoiton of Silverlight as a whole has really missed the mark. Sad to say, I do not see this technology taking off at all based on the tutorials here.

Of course, I could be totally cynical about this, and suspect the thin tutorials were done so on purpose, so certain Microsoft ppl can make millions writing/selling books on the technology with a greater breadth into real life applications.

Ah Microsoft, once again you have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!